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tv   All In With Chris Hayes  MSNBC  December 11, 2013 5:00pm-6:01pm PST

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everything, why not give them something big to say no to. as i like to say to my graduate students, don't say no to yourself, make them say no to you. and that is the message and i got it for myself, that is it for tonight. "all in" with chris hayes starts right now. good evening, from new york, i'm chris hayes, house speaker john boehner went off on the far right forces that helped drive the government shutdown today. it is just the latest struggle among the power centers in the world of republican party politics. two dueling factions of the republican party have been at war with each other. the supporters of john boehner and the gop leadership and the members of the so-called suicide
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caucus, aided and abetted by the force, united by one common enemy, they shut down the government for 16 days. >> there is going to be a negotiation here. >> john boehner stood before the american people delivering his over faction message. meanwhile, ted cruz, heritage action, and their allies were delivering another message to the troops, hold firm. >> i have full confidence that house republicans understand, and i admire the fight that they have been fighting. >> but on the eve of a government default over objections from the tea party, the speaker ended the $24 billion shutdown. >> we fought the good fight. we just didn't win. >> groups like heritage action have agitated for war, and the speaker duly followed them. with republicans so thoroughly vanqui vanquished, one house aide said if nancy pelosi can write an anonymous check to heritage action, she would.
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in the following week, each group returned to their forces to tend to their wounds. >> the conservative funds, there seems to be an implied message there, do you agree with that? >> pass. >> the stage was set for the next battle between the warring factions, the budget, even before the deal was out, heritage action and freedom works announced their action. >> there are an enormous number of people on the right who are looking to kill this thing. >> but the house pressed on. >> you don't have to have a person violate a core principle. this is the step in the right direction. >> the gauntlet was thrown. >> basically it is the old discussion of gee, what do you think i am, a prostitute? >> tom coburn and others lined up against paul ryan. >> he has led to make a compromise that sells out what actually needs to be done. >> but this time, john boehner would not be surrendering.
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>> you mean the groups that came out and opposed it before they ever saw it? >> they're using our members and using the american people for their own goals. this is ridiculous. >> that was john boehner striking back against the people who led him into a shutdown, republicans could not win. the speaker may have won this battle but he may not be able to win the war. >> joining me now, cnbc political analyst, robert costa, were you surprised by the political venom by john boehner about the press conference and heritage action? >> no, i was not surprised. this battle of temperament and how to handle the government has been going on for sometime. when you handle the issues between him and ted cruz, they're almost the same. it is about how to handle strategy and how to handle the cards the gop has been dealt. and i think right now boehner is
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just fed up, especially after the shutdown, groups who look at governing as if it is a combative republican primary. and they look at it as a campaign that needs to be won, rather than a governmental policy that needs to be set. >> do you think this was a sign that boehner thinks he has truly vanquished that power caucus. that he has the upper hand to deal with this deal, and there is a certain type of cockiness that he had, that you very much did not see during the long days of the shutdown, and we played the tape where he was asked about the shutdown, and he said pass. >> he was trying to represent the leadership and just the leadership. the difference now is that boehner has paul ryan at his side. and paul ryan crafted this deal. remember, paul ryan rose through the conservative ranks starting as a young aide to jack kemp. and he has always been
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considered by the right as a man of the movement. and boehner, as much as he is conservative, has never been as much in the movement. that allows boehner to step away from the specifics and let ryan make the case. >> over in the senate there is word coming out that mitch mcconnell is going to vote against the deal. if you have a primary member like mitch mcconnell and john cornyn, none of those guys are going to vote for it. you might win concessions, but the underlying gravity that pulls people to the positions that we've seen is still there as six or seven incumbent gop senators facing primary challenges. >> i actually respectfully disagree with you there. i think mcconnell's nay vote is interesting, we should pay attention to it. he looked at the spending levels next year part of the sequestration cuts. mcconnell wanted to keep as is, he wanted the status quo, ryan
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has conceded the cuts. mcconnell didn't want to get the fees ryan enacted. within the republican party there is disagreement on how to handle the sequestration. some like mcconnell think it is a real hammer to use on the democrats to get things like chained cpi, others want a deal on sequestration now -- >> because they want to get rid of that. >> exactly. >> joining me now, president of americans for prosperity, the conservative political organization founded by the koch brothers. why do you not like this deal? >> it goes well beyond the sequestration numbers for this fiscal year. it was a bipartisan agreement that agreed to those numbers with the debt at $17 trillion, where government programs frankly don't work very well for americans. we should stick to these
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numbers, and these numbers go to $45-50 billion beyond the sequestration numbers. it jacks up fees, it is not a good deal. >> i'm going to talk about areas you and i agree. i think it is delightfully adorable that they have come up with the term "fees" for instance increased tax in airlines. because if you view the fee letters strung together to represent a concept as opposed to the tax letters, then somehow it is fundamentally different. does this work? apparently it works, you just call it something different. >> well, we're not going to let it work across america with our activists. and i think most americans know what is happening here. they see washington raising spending in the immediate term and then somehow vaguely supporting the deficit reduction, saying we're going to cut from the deficit, 55% of
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that is in fiscal years 2023. that is why the esteem is so low for this congress, by americans really of every stripe. >> actually, i would say the opposite, because of the austerity and the sequestration, know has produced -- >> three cents on the dollar? come on, that is not quite austerity. >> we're seeing the most rapid reduction in the fiscal rate, seeing it -- >> that is because -- it ballooned at an unprecedented rate. >> you're here opposing a deal -- i agree with you, the sort of budgetary projections in the out-years are neither here nor there. i say that a government -- >> chris, we see the slow economic growth, the painful loss of jobs. they haven't come back, precisely in part because of the
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policies you're talking about. >> well, know, you and i disagree on this. i think it is true that the budget control act -- that was the big victory of you guys, let's be clear here. afp and heritage action, you won a big victory. you got the debt ceiling shutdown. what i think is interesting here, i am happy to see the right come out and say they like sequestration. there was the point where they were trying to pin the sequestration on obama. others who don't like the deal are finally saying the truth all along, which is yeah, we like the sequester, we want austerity. >> we need to rein in this spending, sequestration is the only tool that has worked to do that. it is not ideal. government spending has exploded under this administration, you know, the spending package in
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2009, it is impossible to say they have austerity when you have government spending explode to the extent it has, even during the bush years. >> as a percentage of gdp, it is well within historical norms. and we have been running deficits in this country, you know that. we have been running deficits in this country, basically nine out of ten years for 50 years, we've done all right during those periods. so it seems to me that is not really the issue. >> this is the slowest economic growth spurt we have had coming off the recession, and there are reasons for that. >> right around the time the budget control passed, and we have cut 600,000 public sector jobs. we've done more in this recovery than any other -- if you add the jobs comparable to reagan or george w. bush figures, you actually get an unemployment number that starts to look a lot
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better. >> you're ignoring the rate of employee growth in the preceding decade and a and a half. it was an explosive long-term growth. you're ignoring that when you talk about the things you're talking about. the stimulus bill was unprecedented. a trillion dollar bill, it didn't work because most of it went to prop up the government employees around the country and didn't go to the shovel-ready profits. >> i do thank you for joining me, tim philips for americans for prosperity. and congressman, can you explain the difference to me between a fee and a tax, because i'm having a little conceptual trouble with these airline fees? >> chris, they're the same in my view. and i've always said as much. if you take money from the american taxpayer, it is a tax. now, i do differ with my colleagues on that. to the point in this segment, this is a great agreement. i sit in conference this morning among my republican colleagues.
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and i found myself in somewhat of a rare situation of the three years in actually applauding the leadership. i think this showed political encourage for paul ryan, i'm proud of him and his listeaders here. it will reduce the deficit overall, releasing partially the sequestration, which has hurt our military. and also it will prevent is from going into another shutdown, which hurts our military, it is a great agreement. >> i agree completely about the shutdown. if there was someone right now who was long-term unemployed who was watching this interview and they're going three days off of christmas, they're going to be kicked off their benefits not because of anything they did, or are not trying to find a job, simply because we have a terrible labor market. and three days after christmas you're going to tell them they're out of luck. why do the republicans want to leave them out of this deal? >> you know, chris, we worked
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very hard as republicans to open up the potential, the entrepreneurship, i am an entrepreneur. we could create $25,000 -- 25,000 jobs, the governor wants it, both democrats want it, the only thing holding us up here is the administration, and the policies put in place, the only way to get people employed is to have a job. >> believe me, nothing i would love more if there were jobs hanging from job trees if people could pluck it and eat plenty. but people who don't have a job, that are staring down the barrel of a christmas without a check, would do you tell them regard the insurance extension, to be part of this deal? >> chris, we've worked on unemployment. it is a top priority here, the empathy we have for those who are hurting, our desire to get them back. and we believe this. and we think this is fair. that a person who can be work
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should be willing to work. the reforms that we've tried to advance, our democratic colleagues were having real trouble finding common ground. if they would work with us on some of these things we could have better progress on some of these things. it is not the republicans who are responsible for this grid lock. >> respectfully, the facts are here. want to establish the facts, democratic party, yesterday -- said we want this extension deal. the republican party doesn't want that as part of the deal. >> listen, we can saddle up with that as long as you allow us to say this. that the reforms that are really fair that are best for the american people, indeed for those who are on unemployment right now, the reforms that are needed, that really frankly are polling around 80%, i'm not a poll-driven person, but it is relevant here. those reforms are being blocked by my democratic colleagues.
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look, both parties are responsible for this grid lock hurting our nation. but look, it is not all one side, chris. >> if you took a vote on capitol hill on just the democratic caucus in both houses you would pass the unemployment extension, it would go to the president and he would sign it. congressman, thank you for your time. >> thank you, chris. coming up, much better numbers on obama care, did not translate to kathleen sebelius on the hill today. >> i know, but you have to leave the opportunity -- >> i do not have to allow her. >> we all agree on -- let -- >> and for the question -- answer the question. >> gentleman will suspend. >> i interrupted the monkey court. so try new glow unstopables. they fill your closet with scents so fresh they last for 12 weeks! downy unstopables. try with downy infusions.
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later in the show we're going to debate time magazine's person of the year, pope francis, turns out there were defenders of the vote for edward snowden, and our question is who, besides the pope, deserves
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the answer? po i'll share a couple of the answers at the end of the show. stay tuned for that. we'll be right back. t i can't j. i want to be prepared for the long haul. ishares minimum volatility etfs. investments designed for a smoother ride. find out why 9 out of 10 large professional investors choose ishares for their etfs. ishares by blackrock. call 1-800-ishares for a prospectus, which includes investment objectives, risks, charges and expenses. read and consider it carefully before investing. risk includes possible loss of principal.
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big news today on obama care enrollment numbers which we'll tell you about in a second. but first, remember the great barack obama care freakout earlier, when the enrollment numbers were paltry. for comparison, we showed you the mitt romney numbers for romney care in massachusetts, they were dismal after one month, better after two, and phenomenal after three months, in october, there were only
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26,794 enrollments in the federal exchange. in november, 110,400 enrollments, four times as many as the previous month, keep in mind this is before the site relaunched on november 30. and now, on the first week of december, the newly relaunched site, more than 12,000 people have enrolled, if you extract that number, all 7 billion people on the planet will have enrolled by march, that is a joke for all of you fox news people who may be watching. the obama care numbers are expected to pass the mark by january one, the new more encouraging number explains why the attacks from the right are growing increasingly more desperate. one way in which obama care requires spending actually saves money for everywhere.
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and congressman shimkus can't seem to grasp it. >> will you admit they will have a higher payment? >> no, i do not. a lot of numbers will tell you if you have preventive care, and prevent more costly hospital -- down the line that that cost is going to actually lower the premium. >> we're just going to disagree. it is like talking to the republic of korea, or something. >> for those keeping score at home, the republic of korea is actually south korea, it appears that congressman shimkus was actually trying to compare kathleen sebelius to the dictator of north korea, kim jong-un. and remember, it was only a month ago we were hearing about policies getting cancelled and rate shock for middle income people, which was sincerely em
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pathetic. now, we have a kentucky doctor who is calling it quits because he doesn't want to learn how to use a computer. he claims the transfer from paper to computer is too much to bear. >> there is a doctor in the house, but not for long, the obama care is running all over him, how? >> if you stay in practice, you have to transfer to electronic records. >> world's smallest violin. the health and human services, insurance oversight, the office responsible for implementing obama care. jay, what is your reaction to the enrollment numbers we're getting today? >> well, there has been an increase of 400% in one month at that rate, as you said. the administration's goals -- the administration will make its goals. i mean, nobody knows exactly how it is going to turn out. except we do know now that the website is vastly improved.
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and we do know now there are all the stories about people who their whole lives have been rejected by insurance companies because they had various health conditions. by the way, not all the time serious health condition, someti sometimes relatively moderate health conditions, but they haven't been able to get insurance before. now for the first time in their lives they know they will be able to get insurance and keep their insurance. that is a terrific thing. >> i totally agree the numbers are showing that the website really has been massively improved. you couldn't get the numbers you have with the old website. they seem fixed, largely. you have seen the right move through a set of different controversies they have inflated. there was the plan cancellations, a bunch of silly stuff we debunk here on the air. it seems now they're zeroing in on the doctor issue. oh, oh, oh, all the doctors are going to run away because socialized medicine is coming. beginning with this kentucky
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doctor, one thing that the affordable care act does is force electronic records in an area that has been using pen and paper for decades, before everybody switched over. >> the affordable care act does a lot of things to cut costs. one of the things it does is pay doctors and hospitals based on quality, not quantity, based on value, not volume. that already has brought costs down. a study just came out today showing in the last year from last october to this october, health care costs have gone up less than 1%. that is the lowest in 50 years. >> wow. >> and much of this, not all of this, is due to the affordable care act. in addition, the changes are structured such that insurance companies must compete with each other, based on price. and because of that, they have -- that means that they have to get tough in negotiating with doctors and hospitals. and what that means, doctors and hospitals also have to be become more efficient. electronic records is a part of
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that. but they have to both cut costs and improve quality. a and and so the system is structured so that everybody is able to cut costs and improve quality. >> and one thing that happened when we had hmos enter that, there was the big cost with that, and the civil war with that, and doctors hated the hmos and put all the blame for what was happening on the hmos, are we going to see a concerted effort by the doctors to take everything that they don't like about the obama care, and say it is their fault? >> doctors and hospitals know this has been going on for years. and both doctors and insurers, rather, and both insurers on one side and doctors and hospitals on the other, they're both big boys. they both are sophisticated parties who have bargaining powers. and that is exactly the type of situation where the government should not get involved.
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they can protect themselves, what the government should be doing is focusing on the consumer. and as long as there are adequate networks in place, it is not the government's business as to whether one doctor is in a certain network or what one insurance company is paying doctors. >> i want to play you a little bit of sound from ezekiel manuel on this issue of whether or not you can keep your doctor, take a listen. >> didn't he say if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor? >> yes, well, listen if you want to pay more for your insurance to keep your doctor, you can do that. we know in certain places, you pay a wider range. people will have a choice to pay more for a selected amount of work -- >> this is a question if networks are going to shrink, if people have access to doctors. again, i want to prepare people for what is coming down the
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pike, which is the rate system. the flaws in the old system, people were getting policies cancelled all the time. and when you could no longer go to your doctor, the next wave of attacks on obama care means, you can't see your doctor. >> sure, republicans love blaming obama care. the last thing the republicans want to do is get into a fight with the interest groups they would love the blame the whole thing on obama care, but that is not where the blame lies. >> thank you. remember the last time milk was all over the news? >> it is a strange prank that has gone viral. gallons splashing. >> it starts like this, gallons of milk or juice smashed. and someone sprawled out on the floor after faking a fall. >> we'll bring you the latest dairy-based panic and how it
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a consumer alert now at 5:00, get ready to possibly pay more, a lot more at the grocery store for an item that most of us use every day. >> $8 for a gallon of milk, this could be a reality if congress doesn't pass a new farm bill soon. >> american families could see milk prices spike to $7 a gallon if congress can't pass a farm bill by the end of the year.
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>> oh, no, my precious white gold! no! oh, oh, oh, save you for a rainy day! >> and there is growing panic about the fact that they may have to pay for milk if congress doesn't act soon on the farm bill. with consumers now staring down what has been called the dairy cliff, the reason we appear to be heading over the cliff is because congress, the least productive in history based on the number of bills that have passed, has failed to pass the legislation that more or less congress always figures out a way to get done. now the panic over the dairy cliff shows stark reality, one i bet most americans are not aware of. the price of milk today is not the hand of the invisible hand of the market, it is a result of subsidies and controls that are part of our very interventional
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patchwork. and with the own set of subsidies and controls are designed to protect farmers, which means more higher prices for consumers. there are things like the government does is give people food stamps as government intervention. while the other thing that could cost money and affect people's liv lives, they just are. they're prices under the water, milk prices are one of those things, so is the deductions of property laws that made bill gates a billionaire. the government and the laws it creates, some of the stuff the government does is welfare for our poor. and some of it is just the invisible stuff in the background that is the girding of middle class life.
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and you just can't separate the two. look at the mechanism to fund the food stamp program. urban residents agreed to shove the subsidies for concerns, to rural areas to help feed the poor. and it worked pretty much, until the republicans took the unprecedented step of stripping the food stamps from the bill, so they could cut food stamps while continuing to cut subsidies to multi-billion dollar cultural concerns. now, you could make an argument for both ending subsidies and food stamps, you could make an argument for continuing, and provide a safety net for the poor, which happens to be my own position. what you cannot do with any possible ideological or moral intent, if it takes the prospect of $7 a gallon for milk, to yoke
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the consumers, and poor people who desperately need to eat, well, then i say bring it on. my grandson's got this blankie that gets filthy.
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coming up, the epic edward snowden, versus the pope francis debate, you have been looking for that all day. that is ahead. and first, we begin with a story out of china. this is 52-year-old factory worker husing, and the shoes he is wearing may look like a mob hit gone wrong to you and me, but turns out he wears the shoes on purpose, he straps them on every day. he says that the exercise is all about improving his health, and helps the back pain, he says it also helps improve your hemorrhoids. and the second comes to us
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regarding art. this is a fairly bo lly boring hotel in germany. he transfers them through different keys on a piano, i guess. i think that is the point. but as real as they all seem, each of these photos is individually creative. they are all just illusions, that is real, i am pretty certain that is. and the psychological term here, the phenomenon of seeing significant images in insignificant places, like seeing the face on the mountain of mars, or jesus on a grilled cheese sandwich.
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but this is a whole new level, tweeting picks every day like, you would be grumpy every day, too, if this one sat on you. turns out there are all sorts of faces in ordinary objects all around us, you can choose to be creeped out by that or totally and completely embrace the face. remember when that was the thing? you can find all the links on our website, allin@chrishayes.com. in most schools kids are sitting on dirt floors several hours a day. those smiles are from kids who
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oh boy... [ male announcer ] fedex one rate. simple, flat rate shipping with the reliability of fedex. well, you can breathe now, everybody, because miley cyrus will not be on time magazine as the person of the year, oh, that was a close one. >> yes, it is. it is designed to precipitate the news segments like the one you were about to watch. there were concerns that miley cyrus was about to win, and she was campaigning for it in a poll. saying things like, it would be amazing, let's see if we can make it happen. i mean, that is actually how it
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was written. she was not named person of the year by "time magazine" or its readers. one of the most obvious choices was nsa leaker, edward snowden, he has to be one of the most remarkable figure in my lifetime. a year ago he was a complete unknown nerd. and today, he has been in the headlines for the most recent leaks with documents that caused political upset around the world. >> he basically took everything from the deepest darkest safe house within the nsa, describing almost everything they're doing around the world to collect information, both on regular citizens and on traditional surveillance targets. >> and that was not quite enough to land him on time magazine this time around. the spot went instead to pope francis, who was also in the
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world almost a completely unknown person, and has become, in my humble opinion, the candidate for all the right reasons since he became pope. >> drawn by his warm and welcoming style, and a new op openness. >> pope francis is being hailed as a hero by catholics who see themselves as a more liberal catholic. >> he has stirred our love for the church. >> i think he has energized all catholics. >> everybody knows the new pope francis is a more humble, gentler pope. >> i'm not the only one digging the pope. it is pope-mania, i love this pope! >> he has been very modest himself in the way he lives. >> he is a pope of the people. he telephones people, he wears black shoes, these things mean a lot to me. >> the new pontiff is proving
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very adept at reaching out to the unreachable. >> reaching out to people, creating an opportunity where honest dialogue can happen. >> given the constraints in the way the pope operates, you can be a jerk about it or be awesome. and this guy is choosing to be awesome. and amy goodman, host and executive producer. i like this year's person, i actually think it often precipitates really interesting discussions. i like this year's choices because it was not a copout like back in 2006, where it was -- >> i liked being person of the year. >> well, i think everybody did, times' person of the year. what is fascinating about this discussion and debate, these two people, edward snowden and the pope seemed very obvious. and there were like strong cases for them. you're in the pope's camp, josh?
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>> yeah, i think he created new focus on the poverty issues, the pope's position is you don't have to be accountable if you don't want to. you can't be fired. you're nominally chosen by god. he is allowed to address factors the church has issues with. the vatican bank, the refocus on poverty is actually a part of that. it is really like, we have to take the mission of the church and make it what it has to be, whether we want to or not. when there is a problem with accountability in all sorts of institutions, that example is really important. >> i think there is really a kind of power of symbolism versus substance debate here. the pope's symbolism has been really amazing. and some of the most powerful
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symbolism i've ever seen, the embrace of the man with the boils on his face, an iconic move, really made me tear up and connected me to the best elements of what i was raised in. which was kind of this social justice catholicism. the kind of striking of the cue ball that hit the table, the edward snowden leaks -- >> i mean, absolutely, we can't take away the pope's quotes, the tyranny of capitalism that the financial system rules and doesn't serve. that is critical. what actually happens with the catholic church is something else. and we have to watch that. >> and what happens there is a question mark. >> with edward snowden who is a runner up, not that i care what times thinks. i actually think he is all about sunlight and transparency.
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snowden is remarkable in what he did, he could have cashed in if he had nefarious goals. he truly was a patriot. and thought how can we get this information out? well, the president calls him lawless and they're charging him with espionage, he is saying the country he is devoted to is lawless, and are the revelation, 5 million cell phone records are being recorded every day. the government -- leakers -- >> i have reached this point in the snowden revelation where the marginal return has flattened, where i now just assume the worst, where every bite in the world is captured by the nsa. >> i felt like that from the beginning -- >> i don't think i necessarily realized that. that gets to the part of the question about snowden, the question of, has he done this terrible thing or has he done nothing? and people seem to argue both of them. >> the question is has he done something terrible or not --
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>> hold that thought, we'll continue this. ahead. i saw my doctor. a blood test showed it was low testosterone, not age. we talked about axiron. the only underarm low t treatment that can restore t levels to normal in about 2 weeks in most men. axiron is not for use in women or anyone younger than 18 or men with prostate or breast cancer. women especially those who are or who may become pregnant and children should avoid contact where axiron is applied as unexpected signs of puberty in children or changes in body hair or increased acne in women may occur. report these symptoms to your doctor. tell your doctor about all medical conditions and medications. serious side effects could include increased risk of prostate cancer; worsening prostate symptoms; decreased sperm count; ankle, feet or body swelling; enlarged or painful breasts; problems breathing while sleeping; and blood clots in the legs. common side effects include skin redness or irritation where applied, increased red blood cell count, headache, diarrhea, vomiting and increase in psa. ask your doctor about axiron.
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earlier in the show we asked you who you would have picked for person of the year. you posted a ton of them, and one of the favorite personalities was picked. jillian, aaron on twitter said the award should have gone to edith windsor, for the sole reason that doma was overturned. to tooth decay and bad breath. stay with us. that's why there's biotene. available as an oral rinse, toothpaste, spray or gel, biotene can provide soothing relief, and it helps keep your mouth healthy, too. remember, while your medication is doing you good, a dry mouth isn't. biotene -- for people who suffer from dry mouth. a dry mouth isn't. maestro of project management. baron of the build-out. you need a permit...
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we're back and i'm here with michelle goldberg, the edward snowden debate and my point sort of about symbolism and significance, significance in terms of how the world unfolded in unanticipated ways that were precipitated by this extremely unanticipated act on the part of everyone that had just set aflame world politics, michelle,
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your thoughts? >> i think it was a voice against the tyranny, we had not had that in a very long time, a figure of moral stature who can make that point. but just the person who had the most influence on world events, it is clearly edward snowden. there has been ripples all over the world. >> one thing americans may not appreciate, on the front page of "the times" in london, or brazil, global areas, this has been a front-page story in areas around the world. >> he said he didn't consider it being the greatest for him being in jail for the rest of his life, and although what he did, he said he could read the e-mails of the president which means perhaps anyone else could. and the president had to deny this until they had to admit that oh, yes, this is true, they
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are spying in america. >> one of the things that i think has come out as the picture of snowden gets better. at first i had the thought well, could any dude at nsa get this stuff? and what emerges is, this guy is incredibly sophisticated. it was not the case that any kind of line worker at the nsa could have had access to what edward snowden had. edward snowden, it seems to me is a particularly brilliant operator. it is the question of what the data control -- it is not clear to me, what are the policy changes that resulted from these leaks? >> there is enormous media story, but as with the pope we'll see if this actually flows through, the changes, the way it operates. because you have a lot of these stories about privacy from big things like this, to big things like people freaking out about google placing ads with their
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e-mail. >> wait a second, wait a second. that is a far cry from the government being able to turn on the camera on your laptop. substantively, it is very different. but people act like they care about privacy more than they actually do. >> that is actually a fair point. one of the things i found surprising is the legs that the story has. i agree with you, i think -- there is a smaller constituency for whom privacy is the primary issue than there are for other issues. and that is everything from jobs to the deficit. >> but if a powerful entity like the government can have this type of power over us, we should all be concerned. i think nelson mandela should have won. >> but when we looked at who won in the year -- who was it? you know who won in 1994, the year he was elected president, pope john paul, the next year, newt gingrich. >> and clearly, the pope is the
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man of the century and taught us so many things from the capitalism, to evil, and social inequality, i mean, nelson mandela is the person. >> i think going back to edward snowden and whether or not we knew all of this before, i wonder if hollywood has inured us to this. because if you watch any movie they kind of have all of this data at their fingerprints when they're chasing somebody. so when you find out they actually had all of this data at their fingerprints and you wonder if there was not more outrage, the idea is yes, of course they can do this. >> there were a number of runners up. edward snowden, edith windsor, who was a plaintiff in the case. i had the absolute pleasure of meeting her, an incredible human being. her story is incredible. there is an incredible interview we don't have time to play right now, but we'll put up later.
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and bashar assad is interesting, it brought up the point that this is a moral designation, stalin won it twice, hitler has won it. but as time has gone on, "time magazine," the pr, in general, the hysterical controversy, is not going to name bashar assad. >> i think the last of the evil picks was the ayatollah after the iranian revolution in the late '70s. so i'm interested to see how did they actually frame these issues back in the day, how did they get the joseph stalin -- >> that is the difference. >> ultimately, when time magazine shows activist of the year, if we're talking about nelson mandela, see, that is what he was about. he said it is about the movements, not about the man,
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and that is really what makes it -- >> there was a protester in 2011, which is of course the year of the occupied and the egyptian -- i actually thought it was a good non-figurehead pick. and amy goodman, thank you all, that is a all for this evening. >> good evening, thank you, my friend, thank you for joining us this hour. up all night! and apparently it is not just tonight. they're going to be up all night tonight, which is only wednesday. and then they're going to be up all night tomorrow and then they will be up all night the night after that. they are going to be up all night all the way from now until saturday. that is the plan. they are doing it again. except this time it is not just one guy, it is not just rand paul misunderstanding drone policy or ted cruz on green eggs and ham. it is not just one republican

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